94 thoughts on “CitizenRE Too Good To Be True?”

1. I was a skeptic. Still am, to a lesser degree. I joined just to check it out. You know, to do the research on my own. I also joined because I believed in the cause. Making money wasn’t even in my thoughts.

   I’ve since become an “Ecopreneur”. It was really simple. Again, just for my own research into the viability of this business. I want it to work! Yet even after going through the quick process to become an Ecopreneur (I signed up and took an online quiz after reading their knowledge base)… I still can’t vouch for the feasibility of this business.

   Yes, the people behind this company are real. I took part in a conference call that included at least 100 people. Most just like me. Many clearly passionate about renewable energy. Others clearly passionate about making money. The leaders were well spoken and knowledgeable. Very passionate. Yet it all lacked specifics. Thus skepticism ensues.

   I’m still rooting for Citizenre. I hope it works for the simple fact that it’ll bring more renewable energy to our world. But it’s still too early to tell if it’ll physically work.

2. Michael: Interesting insight, have they asked you for any money at all yet? What kind of business models have they shown you, what sort of promises are they making.

   I am a little concerned that all you had to do to become a “Ecopreneur” was read a couple web sites and then take a short quiz. Installing solar systems is not rocket science, but it does take a qualified person with a fair amount of technical knowledge.

   I can’t say that your comments have put my doubts to rest.

3. Naib, awesome data mining as usual. It seems that there is no industry that a pyramid scheme can’t touch. I just wonder where all of their funds are coming from, if not from the oil or gas companies, to have such amazing ad campaigns such as the one I viewed on their website. Also, Ed Begley Jr. as an advocate for the company along with soundbites of Morgan Freeman… they are definitely trying to target the boomers, who hold most of the buying power in the US. I wonder if the future of the solar industry would affect the ability of off-the-grid owners of panels. My thoughts are how in other markets there are not such easy solutions to count yourself out i.e. phones..you can’t easily set up your own network…or can you?

4. Naib: No money has been asked for at all. Their internal website is quite impressive, actually (and I’m a web developer!). It’s full of information about their goals and business ideas (but not detailed enough yet). They’re really trying to create a grassroots community of voices to sell their service. They believe what they’re doing is good and they want nothing more than to enable you to help the cause.

   As far as actual business models and promises go, I don’t think we’re privy to anything more than the public is at this point. Again, it’s still early and in order to make a Big Splash they must withhold some information until all the stars are aligned. When that will occur… I don’t know. Keep in mind I haven’t dove in 100% so I know I haven’t read all the information available on this internal website.

   About ecopreneurs and training: we don’t install the systems. We’re just salesmen. A network of technical professionals will visit each house, survey the roof, design a system, confirm it with the resident and THEN install the system. Future maintenance will be done by them, too. So our training is purely on the sales side – knowing the technical details is optional (why do you need to know how a cell phone network works?).

   As for the future of the solar industry, I think Citizenre is doing the right thing. Upfront costs kill solar installation. Other renewable providers ALREADY offer a “rental system” to install wind/solar systems. Citizenre is merely on the forefront of offering the same service to residential customers.

5. Michael: So how do you make any money? Are you paid commission? It seems to me that they have a lot of “and then this happens” magic in their model. How do they plan on getting the silicon, how do they plan on finding all these solar installers, I would be very cautious of a company that does not tell their sales staff how the company plans on making money.

6. Naib: ecopreneurs basically make money on the initial sale/installation and then have the potential for residual income (from direct and indirect sales).

   Citizenre makes money by being paid for the solar energy produced by each system. This money usually goes to electric companies. Instead most will go to Citizenre after a solar installation. Some will still go to the electric company because the sun doesn’t always shine! (and battery technology is terrible/expensive).

7. Interesting,

   Like any new kid on the block, they are going to go through the usual steps to become welcome, and this is no different in my opinion. Fear of the unknowm, fear of competition, fear of being put out of business, there are many reasons fot the negative articles starting to appear when in fact, not a dollar has been spent or asked to by anyone. Not the usual strategy for a scam outfit.

   The articles are self interest ones, every single one I have read has their livelyhood wrapped up in with their fear and emotions overflowing. Yes, if Citizenre pulls off what they are planning, it will put all the struggling solar companies out of business, so of course they are concerned, I have seen the same thing in several industries, so nothing new here.

   The bottom line is this, IF they get all their ducks in a row, get their funding, investors and such, and install even a thousand units, they go public and could easily dominate industry, so yes, I expect an outright assault being launched by the old guard who say it is impossible to do what is claimed.

   One thing I have learned over the years involving technologies, is never say never. The examples are many, video, PC’s, cell phones, sats, photography, alarms and now there is a new $19.95 wireless internet player, so why not a solar breakthrough model. Anything is possible, and the Citizenre plan does not seem as impossible as the fearful are stating, so like everything, time will tell. Prices come down as volume increases, nothing new about this, and with solar breakthroughs in manufacturing, check out IAUS, then you will see the future of solar more clearly.

8. its-your-net:

   Two things,

   First I have no desire to see them fail, I would love to see low cost solar spread, I have no solar job that they would be taking away. I just don’t want a poorly thought out business model, or outright scam, to ruin the reputation of the solar industry. When I was installing solar thermal panels, people were STILL complaining about shitty thermal panels from the 70’s. Scamsters 30 YEARS ago had ruined the reputation of solar thermal, and it had lasting effects to this day. So if they end up signing up hundreds of thousands of customers and then fail, its going to have a big affect on the industry.

   Two: why is it that only people who have already signed up for Citizensre tell me its a good business model? I checked out the website of your email address, and of the link you left, both are rather spammy sites promoting among other things Citizensre. A little full disclosure would have made me take what you were saying a bit more seriously. It seems they are not telling their sales staff how they plan on accomplishing what no one else has been able to do so far. You talk about getting their ducks in a row, and then revolutionize the industry. That’s just like me saying “once I invent free energy from the air, then I will revolutionize the industry” there are very real problems keeping their ducks from getting in that row and they don’t seem to have any plan to remove those problems. I still remain skeptical. (and so should you)

9. Agreed,

   I research everything to do with environmental technologies, and like everyone, I am still skeptical about them all until they become a reality and I test them first hand. Did you check out IAUS, then you would know we are on the edge of breakthrough cost savings on solar manufaturing, so like you, I have been in the industry for years and selling solar was always an uphill battle due to up front costs, so who is to say the Citizenre model is not the answer?

   What amazes me is the critical eye when no one other than company and investors are privy to full business plan. If you add together the breakthrough in cost reduction to manufacture, then factor in ciral marketing which saves millions over traditional advertising, then look down the road with instalation efficiencies, never mind pure volume, then you have the right business plan. I have been in business long enough to know these are major breakthroughs, so lets all give it a chance to succeed or fail, rather than take pot shots at company.

   Everyone has profits in mind, Citizenre, investors, competition, sales associates, and that’s the bottom line. I research everything, not matter how hard it is to believe. I learned a long time ago, never say never when it comes to technologies and especially new products. And as far as Citizenre goes, I was not promoting it, I was debating it, so why would a disclosure on just another blog be required? I did not promote or advocate Citizenre, I posted my thoughts on those who are critical, and in every case to date, it has been someone who has something to lose, as in, traditional solar industry owners, and do they admit their involvement, hardly.

   My point was simple, I am researching them and since there is no cost to learn more, where is the problem? Time will tell, and I too would like to see better progress in solar industry than what has been achieved over the last twenty years from traditional manufacturing and distribution. If nothing else, Citizenre is identifying the consumer trend to want to go green, and I am all for any company that is at least attempting to help the environment, so let the debate continue.

10. Its your: Let me go over this one thing at a time.

    “Did you check out IAUS, then you would know we are on the edge of breakthrough cost savings on solar manufaturing, so like you, I have been in the industry for years and selling solar was always an uphill battle due to up front costs, so who is to say the Citizenre model is not the answer?”

    I did a Google search for IAUS and several things come up, perhaps I am daft but I have no idea what you are talking about, the things that came up dealing with solar did not convince me that Citizensre’s plan is going to work. Do you have any links? As to whom is saying its the wrong model? A lot of people seem to be saying it, myself included.

    “What amazes me is the critical eye when no one other than company and investors are privy to full business plan. If you add together the breakthrough in cost reduction to manufacture, then factor in ciral marketing which saves millions over traditional advertising, then look down the road with instalation efficiencies, never mind pure volume, then you have the right business plan. ”

    That’s just the problem, Citizenre has made no announcements as to how they are going to make these breakthroughs, and if you read the post or my comments you will see the problems caused if they fail.

    “Everyone has profits in mind, Citizenre, investors, competition, sales associates, and that’s the bottom line. I research everything, not matter how hard it is to believe. I learned a long time ago, never say never when it comes to technologies and especially new products. And as far as Citizenre goes, I was not promoting it, I was debating it, so why would a disclosure on just another blog be required? I did not promote or advocate Citizenre, I posted my thoughts on those who are critical, and in every case to date, it has been someone who has something to lose, as in, traditional solar industry owners, and do they admit their involvement, hardly.”

    In a debate is is common practise to disclose your involvement in the topic being debated, its called conflict of interest.

    “My point was simple, I am researching them and since there is no cost to learn more, where is the problem? Time will tell, and I too would like to see better progress in solar industry than what has been achieved over the last twenty years from traditional manufacturing and distribution. If nothing else, Citizenre is identifying the consumer trend to want to go green, and I am all for any company that is at least attempting to help the environment, so let the debate continue.”

    Again and again you say you researched them, yet offer no concrete answers to the questions posed in the post above. How exactly will Citizenre be able to get the silicon, hire enough qualified installers, get the money to make the solar panel plant, all while making a profit on the rental business model? If they hope to raise the capital needed for this sort of thing they should have publicly explained themselves.

    As to the point about the “just wait and see” view, again there is a potentially dangerous side effect of allowing them to taint the reputation of a growing solar industry. If they sign up a bunch of customers and their poorly trained viral sales force makes promises that can not be met its going to have a disastrous effect on the PR of the solar industry. They could ruin the solar rental business plan for future legitimate companies with these tactics.

11. Interesting,

    What search engine do you use? Google it and it comes up on top, but to save you time, here is the lead statement from company on the breakthrough in low cost solar manufacturing.

    Advances are happening every day with solar manufacturing, and not all these advances are dependent on silicon in the same vein as traditional solar, so who is to say what is possible in the near future of industry. Thin film solar is already being introduced as a window coating, XSNX is another example of low cost manufacturing, so never say never.

    As to your concerns that Citizenre could be harming the industry if they do not succeed. All they are doing is taking reservations, no one is being sold or promised anything, nor is there any money being requested or any associated costs at all to register as an associate to learn more. Again, how else do you research anything unless you have access to back office and updates, which requires a little effort to register as an associate, but it doesn’t mean I am knocking on doors for reservations. Like most, we are in a wait and see mode.

    What harm to the industry is there in taking free reservations? Seemed like a cost effective approach to me, and given all the negative fear mongers out there, no doubt the exposure will explode and any press is good press, even if it starts out with naysayers, it just makes it more interesting as more people get educated on energy alternatives.

    Citizenre has made statements on company, and soon will make public release on progress, so as I said, time will tell. Seems more people are negative about the unknown since public announcements have not yet happened. Too good to be true, well, time will tell. I am not concerned one way or the other, I made my reservation, and will report accordingly. I am content to sit back and watch what develops before I would promote it, but sure sounds interesting.

12. just a quick correction; if you go to citizenre.net it says clearly on the front page that the number of associates is about 700, not the 6600+ stated in this post.

13. A sales rep for http://renu.citizenre.com was passing out fliers at a local utilities resource planning meeting a few nights ago. After looking into his business further, I agree that they do not have a viable business model/to good to be true. Sounds like a pump and run. This company is pumping up their investment efforts by signing up a lots of multi-level commission-only salespeople who are enrolling customers before they’ve even broken ground on their plant or announced that they even have financing. I’m afraid that when all is said and done that this company will only end up a smoking hole in the ground, staining the reputation of solar power, impacting local utility your customers, and effecting many investors.

14. Can anyone tell me if they’ve found any information as to where this manufacturing plant will be built? I can’t find a word about it.

15. Dale: That information has not been released by the company yet. They cite competitive advantage as the reason for withholding such information.

16. Hello all. Not that I know a crapload of info I have been following solar and wind for some years. I search google and the only company I come up with using AC-PV solar panels is Exeltech based out of ft worth tx.
    After watching the citizenRE video and looking at the pics the panel looks alot like exeltechs. Just my two cents.

17. I just have a few questions/words and I’d love to hear everyone’s views b/c I’m trying to clarify things for myself:
    If this model seems so impossible and solar is not a logical option for the masses b/c of technology and supplies, why should we care if we hurt the solar industry so much? If it’s not possible for almost everyone to have solar in the somewhat near future, then there is no point for the minority of “elites” to have it other than as a survival strategy for peak oil or something. But if our true concern is environmentalism and the reversal of global warming, don’t we need to take risks now? In the face of apocolypse, the idea that Citiznre could be a scam doesn’t bother me too much.

18. Heather: Are you in any way affiliated with citizenRE?

    The problem with this being a scam is that scams hurt growing industries. People tend to only remember the negative things. So if this turns out to not happen, or turns out to be a scam, or the huge promises turn out not to be true it could have a bad effect on the solar installers that are legit and are not promising the moon.

19. I appreciate the logical approach of this thread, but it is impossible for you to evaluate our business model when we have yet to release critical information.

    Your modeling of our costs is significantly off. We don’t have a “silver bullet,” but we do shave pennies at every point that add up to significant savings.

    If you read the Music FM study or the Greenpeace analysis of that study by KPMG or the S.O.A.R study by cleanedge.com, you will discover that our model is both realisitc and achievable.

    People are still upset about some “solar scams” in the 70’s because they lost money. People have a long memory when money is involved. With our Forward Rental Agreements, the security deposit is not paid until the customer signs off on their design and we have their panels ready to install. By this time we will have invested over $650 million into our plant and infrastracture, we will have a national network of franchisees, and our model will no longer be in question.

    Our Ecopreneurs are paid when a system is installed and they are paid every month for every customer. We pay $500 for every system installed and 16% of the monthly rental bill. This puts a cap on our marketing costs and creates a grassroots movement to promote policy change and expand net metering laws.

    We realize that ours is a bold plan and there will be skeptics. Our press release this month will help people understand the magnitude of this project and the strength of our partners.

    Thanks,

    Rob Styler

20. I was asked to comment on some of these blogs discrediting citezenre by an unnamed person that directly deals with solar, hydroelectric, and wind energy sales. The guy has always been rude to me and asks for more work than he is willing to pay. So I am putting in my 2 cents (from my point of view not his.) I am an electrician occasionally subcontracted to install similar systems solar and other as well and the problem is with the high price of these “green” generators is that they are not produced on a large enough scale to be affordable. I make more repairs and replacements on the systems I have installed and I know the price (if you do not have any problems) pay for themselves after 25-30 years (basically when your mortgage is paid off your electric is as well) if this citizenre is having their panels and components made in mexico for pennys on the dollar (rather than in texas factories made by illegal workers) then I can see the prices reduced drastically. Being already experienced in the installation I would be very interested in the subcontracts and hope they pay better than Mr. (name removed for job security reasons) and I would not be too unhappy to see his business go under as a result. I was apporached and told about the business model and also was told that the company had not opened it’s factory yet. I hope they do not announce anything so as not to give any competitors the information needed to sabatoge the plant before anything is produced. In fact I bet they have some plant in mexico right now building them waiting for the realeas of the first systems. If it is the texas oil companys paying and bribing people to discredit this company I would first look into BP (oil company and solar producer) then I would look into the other solar companies. I thought you guys were supposed to be peace loving hippys? Just try to fix this global warming thing and worry about your pocket books later.

21. Anon: ha he well us hippies might surprise you with our rather rational business sense, and sound investment skills. You should not count on a secret Mexican solar plant as the magic ingredient of your solar business plan. You still have to buy silicon. You have to create cells that are high quality. I too have worked in the solar industry and can tell you that there are skilled subcontractors out their but not very many that are familiar with solar. We “hippies” are not trying to kill citizenre, just keep them honest.

22. Rob,

    I think the point is that you have not released any information on your backers and plant location. Reasonable people should not take this a defense of your position, but as a condemnation.

    I have been following your deceptive practices for several months now, and a promise to announce major information is allows given, but every month that goes by reduces your credibility.

    When are you going to stop self destructive pattern of behavior?

23. Whenever a project of this magnitude is moving forward, there a thousand pieces that need to coordinate. There is nothing deceptive or destructive.

    Microsoft first announced their launch of Vista in 2003. They had numerous subsequent announcement that they continue had to delay. They finally launched this year–four years after their initial hope. Microsoft is obviously a very successful and large organization.

    We have made it very clear to our independent reps that we are a start up. Here is a section from our required training:

    Your investment is your time
    As you know, we do not require any investment of money to be part of this effort. During this early phase, we also discourage you from investing your own funds in ads and marketing–it will be some time before that investment can pay off. But your investment of time is precious. You are also investing your reputation and good name.
    Before you begin, understand exactly what you are investing in. This is a start-up. It is risky. We could fail. If we fail we all wasted our time, energy and commitment. If you decide to join our organization, do so with your eyes wide open. Own your choice and move forward with confidence.

    I am not sure how we could be more clear. We are doing something that has never been done. There will be delays, risks, and unpredicted events.

    We explain the same thing to our potential customers and recommend that they buy solar now if they can afford it and we even provide links to help them do that.

    I wish I could just tell everyone right now what we have lined up. But it would not serve our long-term plans so we have skeptics complaining. That is understandable and part of the process of creating change.

    Thanks,

    Rob

24. Rob,

    Isn’t that the beuty of your position. As long as you reveal nothing about your venture, no one can prove anything about the veracity of your claims.

    This is why anyone with half a brain should at this point be expecting at least the slightest shred of verifiable information regarding your business. You have systematically avoid doing this, claiming it is necessary to protect your business interest. But the longer this goes on, the more clear it becomes that your behavior is motivated by the desire to avoid scrutiny of a vacant plan. This is pure deception on your part which will ultimately be revealed.

25. Rob,

    Also, Using an ends justifies the means argument, you say you have to engage in deceptive practices to enlist customers in order to bring effective change to the laws of the land.

    Well, here is a link to information about work that the good people of SEIA are already doing to bring about such legislation:

    http://www.commondreams.org/news2007/0328-01.htm

    Is CitizenRe a member of SEIA? No. Is the solar world going to stop turning if CitizenRe fails to enlist 100,000 customer who sign up to get nothing for nothing? No. In fact, you stand to harm the industry much more than you stand to help. A true tragedy for the folk who have put there trust in you.

26. I still have my contract sitting here unsigned as my electric rates here in texas under txu are rumored to be dropping a little. I also Dont want to lock in with a solar provider today for the next 12months pending some install as Im hearing about New Technology in Solar Panels about to hit the market with better proformance that todays units. If we all sign up for something next yr it takes us off the list of available customers and Im not willing to do that.

27. Another thing.. My HOA wont allow me to install a thing let alone solar or wind on my roof.. Nothing is in the CCRs. All I have is a ground install and thats partly shaded. Is Citizens have any push to force HomeOwners to put up solar on there OWN roofs.???

28. It is not “convenient” to not be able to share the information that validates our position. My life will be a lot easier after our press-release.

    And why do you continue to use inflammatory words like “deceptive.” We communicate as clearly as possible to both the customers and our reps that this is a start up, there will be delays, etc.

    Michael..we don’t have any special pull with HOA’s. But there are some national net metering laws being considered that will help.

    Thanks,

    Rob

29. i just signed up.
    i will come back and let you guys know what i find.
    I am a long time electronci technician /RF engineer,
    and now am buying / selling / renovating houses.
    Since I am in New Orleans, this would be great if it were true.
    and i hope it is.
    New Orleans has about 100,000 homes that are in the middle of being renovated now.
    I just bought a 2,300 sq ft home, and also own a 3-plex 2 duplexes and the house i live in.
    if it really works, ill have them doo all my properties.
    Brad
    
    spam kill

30. Still waiting for the press release that never comes.

31. Here we are at May 21, I went to the Citizenre website, and didn’t see any info on where the $650 million financing is coming from yet. I hope Citizenre succeeds, and it’s not some kind of scam. I was considering becoming an Ecopreneur with them, but seeing all the questions on the internet about the legitimacy and honesty of the business plan (especially the article by Jeff Wolfe on Citizenre– not to be confused with Jeff Wolf) I’m disappointed and will hold off for now in becoming an Ecopreneur, until I can get a clearer picture of what’s going on with the company.

32. Funny,

    Same old BS for sure, what a waste, and besides, by the time they do have their act together, if ever, new solar technologies will negate their rental benefits as prices drop more and more on advances in non silicon based solar technoligies.

    What could we expect other than the typical hype when you consider the sourse of all this BS came from one of the promoters of the biggest MLM rip offs in history, closed by the FTC a few years back, so I wonder how many others are behind this deal who were X Equinox promoters? Maybe Rob would like to tell us?

33. Interesting,

    All this time and they still don’t have details on factory? I thought for sure they would have at least some confirmation of manufacturing plant, but I have heard nothing and looking at this thread, it too died.

    I agree, there are advances in cost reductions with new nano coatings for solar power, not requiring silica, so I would think solar prices will continue to drop to affordable levels for purchase, not rentals which will end up costing home owner much more over term.

    Besides the above solar cost reductions, there are also increase in performance, and this all adds up as problems for Citizenre as I see it. And soon, we will have solar hydrogen fusion system for less than solar alone, so finally the market is moving forward with so many behind the green scene now. With Live Earth focusing on environmental issues, Inconvenient Truth and Hollywood movement for public awareness, it is just a matter of time and money and we will all see cost effective energy alternatives.

    NanoDetonator.com

34. This may have already been addressed. I think there is an error in your calculation of energy use for Madison. I live in NH and have tracked my use for several years. My family 2 – 3 people is averaging about 1000 KwH/month or 12000 KwH/year about 10 times the number you used in your calculation.

35. I’ve tracked myself in VT over the years:

    (Inefficient 1br apartment)
    Monthly KwH: 376
    Yearly KwH: 4,574

    (Efficient 2br condo)
    Monthly KwH: 227
    Yearly KwH: 2,766

36. Re: Efficiency
    It really depends on heating source, water heating source, central air conditioning, and to a lesser extent the age of the major appliances. You’re probably comparing apples to oranges and would need to convert everything to btu’s to make a meaningful comparison across geographies, and perhaps standardize to heating and cooling degree days.

    None-the-less, I’ve been able to reduce the use of 2 different houses significantly to about 1100 kWh/yr in Minnesota and 3500 kWh/yr in Maryland, although both have natural gas heating and water heaters.

    Re: CitizenRE
    CitizenRE now has a competitor…

37. I’ve just recently signed the CitizenRe Forward Rental Agreement for installation of a solar system for my house, and also completed the training and test to become an independant Ecopreneur (independant sales associate).

    Our beautiful southwest Oregon area is being considered for a Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) re-gassification port sighting, with associated ~250 mile long, 36″ pipeline to supply the gas to northern California. Our area has no need of, demand for, or interest in, LNG. LNG is needed for current electric power generation in California. Our own electric demands are currently supplied by hydo-electric damns on the Columbia River, which I believe, still produce a surplus amount of energy beyond that which is needed by consumers in the Pacific Northwest.

    Our local short-sited county commissioners believe this LNG terminal will result in an industrial boom for our community (it’s questionable whether an industrial boom is what our community really wants, but we were never consulted about that, and in fact the county commissioners blocked citizen efforts to pay for the costs associated with putting the question to local voters).

    At a recent county permitting meeting, less than half a dozen people spoke in favor of this LNG siting, while approximately 200 appeared to oppose it, with perhaps as many as half standing to voice their concerns and opposition.

    But this is the same commission which just approved an open-pit mining permit over the objections of many many of the residents that will be adversly affected by the noise, dust, and traffic problems associated with dump trucks moving at 6 minute intervals, seven days a week, 24 hours a day, 340 days a year for the next 10 years.

    Dick Chaney has placed the decision for sighting LNG terminals in the hands of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission so that local communities like ours ultimately have little or no say in the decision for siting them (our only hope is that we will be able to attract huge public lobbying groups with powerful legal and political leverage to oppose them).

    Dick (think “post Administrative private sector job security” issue) has determined that LNG siting is a “National Security” issue (pretty handy for him, this fear of terrorism thing, eh?).

    Our local Development Council is run by a fellow with 30 years in the oil industry (so what kind of industry would we hope to attract here with that leadership? Well, something like what we’ve gotten by putting them in power in Wahington, I guess.), and the Directors of the Council almost all represent local industry that stands to gain from resource extraction and consumptive industrial development. None of the Directors represents community memebers who are interested in local sustainable quality of life issues.

    Over the years I have become discouraged with the lack of social progress in the US. Many wonderful ideas, such as solar energy production, gained momentum from the turbulance of the 60’s and 70’s, only to be replaced by an almost hyperactive regression into the past status quo models of individual and corporate greed (and even a multi-century step backward into dabbling with corporate-fascist colonialism, as it turns out).

    If I can be a part of something which has the potential to take some of the power out of the local, state, regional, national, and international power elites who have created such a disturbing mess of things, and help put that power back into the hands of the individual citizen, who like myself, is not currently even being consulted at all, then I’m willing to invest my own personal time and energy in an idea that just might work.

    I’m going into this with my eyes wide open. I think that is what CitizenRe is asking of all of us.

    This seems to me to be an agreement between a sophisticated corporate model, and a grassroots movement, which may be the only type of production/marketing structure which has a chance of succeeding in our current socio-economic and political landscape.

    Some will be motivated to participate out of genuine concerns for sustainability. Some will be motivated by personal gain. For most, it will be a cobination of the two.

    And if ultimately CitizenRe is unable to make affordable solar energy available to residential customers, perhaps their cause will be taken up by others who also share their vision.

    In the absense of committed representational political leadership at the local, state, and national levels, this is may be all we can expect from Americans in the early 21st century.

    Terry Mills
    http://www.jointhesolution.com/solarbay

38. There is definately a void of information around the status of Citizenre. Whenever this situation exists, speculation will thrive. The first question you have to answer for yourself before you can truly take a position on Citizenre is do you think they are authentic and ernest in what they are selling. Once you answer that, it will color every side of the argument. The power of the Citizenre program is that people want home solar. Moreover, people want to be a part of it. Throw in the idea of making money while doing it, and you have the perfect marketing scenario.
    We can speculate the short term success of Citizenre like we can predict a race in progress by watching the racers position on the course. If a racer is at the back of the pack mid race, that racers fate is pretty clear. However, predicting the long term success is a whole different story. If people want it to succeed and all involved refuse to take no for an answer, then the initiative cannot and will not be stopped.
    Everything discussed here in reference to Citizenre meeting deadlines can be debated on details and progress. However the ultimate success of the program will not depend on anything said here. If people want it, and refuse to be stopped, Citizenre will succeed.
    The only reason we are having this discussion is because Citizenre gave some timelines and figures. Perhaps those statements were premature. I don’t have the direct knowledge to say so. But, the reality is that people want it. People are committed to the idea of solar powered homes. Based on the amount of people Citizenre has signed up already, people are committed to action as well.
    The key thing that I ask Mr. Wolfe to look at is who all of these people are who have signed up. Independant marketers and home-owners. Nobody who signed up for this program is doing it strictly for the money to be made. They are all environmentally minded people who want to make a difference. Why did they pick Citizenre? Very simple. It is the only game in town. It is the only place where the average Joe can actually take action.
    As for hurting the other established Solar businesses, I will share this with you all. This weekend we went to the Tampabay home show. For those who have never been to a homeshow, everyone you can imagine in the area has there products there. From corporate show booths to local businesses. After canvassing the entire convention center, I found 3 business that did solar. 2 of which did home solar and both specialized in hot water heating. Only 1 of them claimed to do home photovoltaic installations and that business told me and my wife that they were impractical and expensive and acutally quoted the figure of $100,000 for an installation. The representative went on to say that hot water was the only reasonable solar project they recommend. If you live in the Tampabay area, there are no choices for solar electric home installations. So, in Tampabay, there are no PV installers to be hurt by the Citizenre movement.
    For me personally, I would like more clarity on the progress of Citizenre as it happens. I have heard it said that the release of too much information could hurt the company strategically. I cannot speak to that statement because I simply do not know. However, at this point, I can see nothing negative about supporting or participating in Citizenre. If it does not come to fruition, so be it. I believe in the cause so, to me, that is enough. Besides, what else is there?

39. Pingback: CitizenRE:REvisited « EE/RE Investing
40. Pingback: shiftingheat » CitizenRE too Good to Be True? | The Sietch Blog…….

41. I came across a CitizenRE rep at the state fair this weekend and spoke with him for a while before giving him my name and address for more information. I received an email this evening saying my new account has been set up and I can log in to review my account. The following is a cut and paste of some of the information in that email:

    “you will have the ability to view your system’s operating status in near-real-time. Data is updated on a daily basis. Use this feature to see how much electricity your REnU has generated for you and at what time of the day, how much of it you used and when, and how much you delivered to your utility. Even see how much energy you took back from the local utility and when. Additionally, this daily data translates directly into your monthly bill”

    Ok, so I logged into my “new account” and guess what I found…a “contract status” section indicating that I had requested a 25 year contract and that it was pending (I had, in fact, told the rep I specifically would NOT sign the 25 year contract but may consider the one or five-year contract). There was also a section of graphs headed up with my personal information, a contract number and colorful displays of my current energy consumption, energy generated by the panels, energy sold and energy bought back…all with colorful displays. Keep in mind, no one has been to my house to even consider a solar installation let alone begin any type of solar installation. THERE ARE NO SOLAR PANELS INSTALLED ON MY HOUSE.

    If this is the data that will be comprising my bill and the data is fabricated, as it must be since CitizenRE has no record of my energy usage today and, especially, since they have data on my solar energy production when I have no solar energy system, I am deeply concerned.

    I also noticed, in the contract information displayed on the “account” I logged into, that there may be additional fees as outlined in section 1.2 of the contract. Under section 1.2 of the contract, it simply has the word (reserved) in parenthesis and nothing more. Who would agree to such a contract?!

    I want to make all of you aware I am posting this message to inform you of my current experience with the company CitizenRE and to allow Rob or any other representative of their company to explain what is going on and why I am seeing the data I am seeing in the “account” created for me.

    I have been hesitant in responding to comments made about CitizenRE until this point because I have been trying to be positive in thinking they may actually be a legitimate company, however, I am rapidly deciding to agree with the nay-sayers and look forward from a response from CitizenRE which would actually make me consider doing otherwise.

    One further comment to CitizenRE: If I receive a bill, invoice or collection statement of any kind, you will see legal action and media activity that will give your company more attention than any rep at the state fair.

    Thanks for your attention to this matter.

42. Truik:

    The ECO never should have filled out your online account without your consent. You obviously have no obligation and would never receive any bill from Citizenre unless we have installed panels on your home. Right now people are just filling out Forward Rental Agreements. We will not be installing solar panels until next year when the manufacturing plant comes online, and we have collected no money or deposits.

    Through your “account” please send in a support ticket (under the SAS category) so we can look into the ECO who you met at the fair. You can also just send in a support ticket to delete your account and we will do that immediately. Right now you don’t even have a contract with us. It is not a contract until we receive the paper work signed by you.

    Any customer can cancel their contract at any time before the site visit with no penalty at all.

    I apologize for any confusion and please communicate with us through your “back office” so we can clear it up.

    Thanks,

    Rob Styler

43. Thanks for responding, Rob.

    I feel the need to insist on a response to my earlier comment:

    “If this is the data that will be comprising my bill and the data is fabricated, as it must be since CitizenRE has no record of my energy usage today and, especially, since they have data on my solar energy production when I have no solar energy system, I am deeply concerned.”

    Can you please explain how you have daily usage and daily energy production charts on my account when there has been no metering or even an installation of solar panels?

    As per the email message I received from Citizenre, this data is what is going to be used to comprise my monthly bill. How does this data exist on my account with no set up or installation of any kind?

    I would like that issue addressed specifically.

    Had this data set (and the accompanying graphs) been available after an install, I might have simply assumed it was actually reading from the equipment itself, however, as there is nothing installed, it wreaks of falsification and I am desperately trying to understand where the information came from. Again, this deeply concerns me.

    Just for the record, I did do a search with the Better Business Bureau and I see there has only been one complaint in all against CitizenRE. One complaint with the BBB certainly does not make a bad company, however, it was for a billing issue. Again, the means in which my personal experience with your company has been handled so far is genuinely, deeply affecting my positive outlook towards the legitimacy of the company.

    Please explain the data set of kilowatt hours produced on a daily basis for my account when I have no solar panels installed.

    Thanks.

44. We have a “sample bill” in your back office as a reference. That has nothing do with your personal situation. You would never receive a bill from us until there are panels on your roof that you are renting and you have personally signed a contract agreeing to all of the terms.

    Please send any further questions through your back office support ticket.

    Thanks,

    Rob

45. I figured this out. They (CitizenrÄ“) are NOT building a plant at all but they are going to partner with NanoSolar and buy their product. Two things are clear to me. NanoSolar is building the largest solar power plant in the world and they plan to start selling their product in mid 2008 the EXACT same time that CitizenrÄ“ will be selling their product. They are not telling anyone where “their” plant is being built because they have everyone thinking CitizenrÄ“ is building it when that is not true. SO if the predictions comes true and they can buy solar electric for $.30 a watt then that changes EVERYTHING. http://digg.com/environment/Nanosolar_s_Breakthrough_Solar_Now_Cheaper_than_Coal

46. read what they write. CitizenrÄ“ is going to start selling product at exactly teh same time frame when NanoSoalr is going to start selling there product. SO in reality CitizenrÄ“ is not and will never build a plant they own. They will simply use other peoples product. Now that is exactly what our company is going to do also. After all wahy build a plant when others are doing it for you. And another reason why a future solar modules from NanoSoalr will be so simple to install is because you will NOT have to mount it in the “conventional” sense. So yes a 50% reduction will be possible. Hey Rob if you are reading this (I assume you are) then please speak up. But I am sure you will not because you don’t want to let the cat out of the bag.

47. John:

    I appreciate your creativity, but we do not currently have any plans to have an off-take agreement with NanoSolar. We are open to the idea as their technology is proved out.

    We still plan to build our own plant, but we are technologically agnostic. If NanoSolar or Konarka or any of the exciting new technologies prove that they will last in the field, then we would be happy to sell those technologies through our distribution channels.

    Thanks for your interest,

    Rob

48. interesting reply Rob…

49. interesting reply Rob…they claim a 25 year warranty which seems either very stupid or very bold. After all they have to compete with what is on the market. If you say you “still plan to build” then when and where will that plant be and have you actually started on the plant yet?

    How can you say you will be selling systems now by mid 2008 when you have not even started the plant yet as I understand it as of today. “plan to build” is not the same as “building” a plant. If you have no plant then if it is true you plan to sell systems by mid 2008 then you have to buy product from existing PV modules manufactures correct? (until your “plant” comes on line)

50. John:

    During our pilot phase, we do plan to buy panels from existing manufactures. Because of the higher cost of goods and the local incentives that will be necessary, this model is not sustainable, but it will offer important benefits in the short-term.

    I apologize that I don’t have time to continue a dialogue, but I hope I have answered your questions. I understand that it is hard to make sense of our plan when you do not yet have all of the facts. After our press release, it will all make sense.

    Thank you for your interest,

    Rob

51. Rob,

    Thanks for the reply. I figured you where going to have to do “something” (buy modules from current manufacturers) if you want to remain credible. And you keep promising a “press release” since almost a year ago. I think your plans are not really working out as you had originally planned and the silence from your company only hurts your company as you are well aware.

    John D’Angelo

52. Sad,

    Not having the time to waste keeping up with all these empty promises any longer, I couldn’t believe there is still no factory, never mind the press release which we heard was coming for the past year.

    Really, does anyone care anymore? With all the recent advances in nano solar, alternate materials that are proving to be more efficient and cost effective over silicon, and with talk of not renewing solar incentives by gov, then this deal will likely never get off the ground.

    Good luck,

53. There are thousands of Ecopreneurs who care.
    There are over 25,000 customers who care.
    There are millions who are concerned about climate change who care.

    As far as the Energy Bill that you mention, Citizenre organized over 6,000 calls to our representatives in Washington because we care.

    I don’t find that sad at all–I find it inspiring.

    Thanks,

    Rob

54. That part is inspiring, your lack of promised information is what is sad. It looks like Energy Bill is not was was hoped for, so now what?

55. The lack of leadership shown by our elected officials is disappointing. The fact that they failed to extend the tax credits hurts the solar industry, but we expect that there will be an extension before the tax credits run out at the end of 2008.

    Either way, Citizenre will move forward in our mission of bringing renewable energy to the masses.

    Thanks,

    Rob

56. Pro & Con,

    Would a power plant on every roof be a good thing? It depends on your personal situation. If you work for a utility company it might not be so good. If you are off the grid ….. that opens up a whole new can of worms. If you have a home owners association from H..l it might not happen. If your roof happens to face the wrong way OH Well. Will space based power collectors make it a waste of materials and labor? It makes for a lot of questions and the answers often change as we go along.

    Can we reduce power usage? Most certainly it is possible….in fact if the standards were upgraded I would bet that a new home could use much less energy than is used now. Will it happen …. only if enough people push hard enough. It is much like the automotive area…if everyone used the new synthetic lubes in the right weights and changed them at the extended millage and drove under the speed limit ….can you guess how much could be saved? both in fuel and lubes.

    It is a question of priorities ….. are we going to make a difference or leave it for our kids and grandkids to deal with?

    Glen

57. Glen,

    I feel that a “power plant” on “every roof” will neverr happen, but we can try can’t we? I believe that the “central power” concept is no longer a viable business model for creating electricity and delivering it the customer. With really inexpensive PV modules on the horizon (Nanasolar is NOW shipping their PV modules to Germany) the world of power generation will be turned upside down as we know it sooner than we think.

    Our company realizes that the customer generally just wants electricity at the LOWEST possible price. All forms of RE will provide that in the future because central power will nto be able to compete with ON SITE power produced by RE systems in the future.

    If we can follow their same business model as what the utility company has offered in the last 100 years – NO UP FRONT COST and the COMPANY (not you) owns the generating equipment, than there will be NO reason in the future to even hook up to a utility company (except to use them as a battery back up) which is the popular thing to do NOW. But stay turned for the “twist”.

    John D’Angelo, CEO
    http://www.beutilityfree.com

58. Hello,
    Last night my wife handed me a “forward rental agreement” from Antonio F. Guerrero [3000002025]. I had responded early last year. So I am reading the blogs and trying to sort this all out. As a mechanical engineer who mostly does design I find the discussion about the basic modules/converters and silicon/economics helpful yet inconclusive when business secrecy is still the order of the day. However the installation of these devices is highly problematic. Why would Citizenre even send an agreement to me without understanding my situation. So some installer will come out and install panels on my tile roof? using elmers glue? and then be done in a few hours? My HOA would flip out.
    So before I sign, I would like to describe some realistic pre-conditions for rooftop solar. Disclosure: I have a tall McMansion with mexican tiles in Arizona.
    1. Loading: The panels require some structure for mounting to the roof. if wind can travel under the panel then extra support (weight) would be required and this would likely require existing tiles be removed to compensate for the extra loading thus creating another problem for leaks etc. A shingle roof often is not designed for large loads. Generally, adding panels is doable but requires a frame and leak-proofing for the panels to be built on the house. This is not minor construction. Also there is fire and lightning concerns that needs addressing. The evolution to rooftop solar will require changes in building codes and roofing systems for realistic/economical panel installations.
    2. HOA: This is about aesthetics in most cases and then these organizations are very conservative. They would care very much about the way it looks and the wiring etc. The look of these modules over twentyfive years is subject to UV decay/paint flaking, corrosion, rust stains and atmospheric flotsam and jetsam like those plastic shopping bags (really, during a dust storm these things fly!) I have no access to my roof to clean panels. So any installation must have proven assurances for any HOA.
    3. Non-rooftop options: A engineered truss system in the backyard would offer sun tracking and could be mass produced thus standardizing the installation which, in my view, is the third leg of the stool.

    We all want to believe in solar power but I doubt that any entrepreneur scheme will get much traction. The solution requires a broad based approach involving house design, building codes, grid planning as well as cost of components. I will wait for national leadership that is willing to seriously set a national goal and get people like me involved in the comprehensive solution.

    I will not sign any agreements until full disclosure of proven technology is presented.

    Rich

59. Rich:

    Our highly trained solar designer will go out to your house, evaluate your site, design the system and you will sign off on it before anything is installed.

    The FRA just tells us that you want the designed to come to your house. You can cancel with no penalty if you do not like the design for any reason.

    The installation and the performance are fully insured and guaranteed.

    Certain HOA’s can have a challenge with Solar. In California, they are not allowed to block the installation by law. You will have to check with your HOA.

    Thanks,

    Rob

60. Rob:

    I just signed up to become a citizenre ecopreneur and am going through all the training modules to take the tests. I was happy to see you are answering blog postings after months of absence. I have a Peace Corps, solar and mlm background as well, so I have decided to trust you regarding the legitimacy of this company and its unusual business model for the time being.

    If citizenre is the revolutionary company as touted, then I am really looking forward to being a part of it. However, if this is some kind of scam, I cannot emphasize strongly enough the harm this does to the solar movement. I’ve been there decades before with solar technologies that clients invested in, only to have the systems fail, the companies go bankrupt and us left holding the bag. Never again.

    The main issue that is so prevalent on the blogs is the issue of transparency. This is what killed the Mortgage/Wall Street CDOs and SIVs industry and is probably affecting citizenre’s ability to secure financing as well. Couple this with the continuous delays for the big “Press Release” and factory groundbreaking and citizenre is already leaving a bad taste in potential ecopreneurs and client’s mouths. They are savvy enough to google “citizenre scam” just as I did.

    I have to compare citizenre to a legitimate solar business my buddy founded: PermaCity Solar in L.A. They have installations at Costco and Ray Knappe’s Living Home and grew their business the old fashioned way. On the other hand, every mlm based business I have known trends toward the Equinox model.

    I also share Rich Rosenthal’s skepticism about the physical installations, especially on tile roofs. I don’t know how many “franchisees” you have established that will do the actual installation, (it sounds like you only have one “highly trained solar designer” so far) but I know it will be a challenge here in Calif. where tile roofs abound.

    As I see it, the homeowner will get solar electricity for the same cost and ease as their current utility. That’s an easy sell. But the smart ones are going to ask; “What’s in it for citizenre?” I don’t have an answer.

    I really want to believe in your mission and be an integral part of it, but I cannot afford to put time or effort into a “hare-brained scheme” as my significant other politely calls it. Forgive me for being so negative, but every business decision requires due diligence. Any information you can provide regarding plant opening date and securement of financing will be a big help.

61. Guy:

    Thanks for your comments and concerns. The information you are asking about will not be released until our press release.

    To say that we lean toward the “Equinox model” is unfair and inaccurate. Citizenre has no sign up fee, no monthly fee, and we provide our training for free.

    I assure you that we are serious about our mission of bringing solar power to the masses.

    Thanks,

    Rob

62. Rob,

    Thank you for the reply. I wait anxiously for the press release. I have a direct mailer (http://www.rsvppublications.com/?marketid=59) ready to go to 30,000 households in my area in February with a copy and design due date of January 15th, which I understand needs to be reviewed by citizenre first, so time really is of the essence. Do you have a press release date set?

    Cheers. Guy.

63. Guy:

    When the date is set, we will make a public announcement. The date for the press release has not been set yet and I am not going to speculate on the date until it is official.

    Thanks,

    Rob

64. Interesting,

    With all the hyped up start up dates and then impending press release that is almost a year behind original announcement, I can’t believe there is now no date at all. So does this mean you still have no property, no factory and no investors?

    Good luck getting this off the ground, but at least you are no longer announcing factory date and installation timeframe, so it is good to see you have learned not to use Equinox tactics of overselling and under delivering. Hype doesn’t sit well with most people these days.

    PAYPERPLAY

65. The intention was never to hype. It is hard to contain the excitement of what we are building and like any business, sometimes there are unexpected delays. Microsoft had false starts with Vista since 2004.

    We anticipated some events that were not yet concrete and for that I take responsibility. We made some internal choices that have delayed our announcement, but have put us in a stronger position for the future. Our philosophy is to under-promise and over-deliver and our track record will continue to reflect that more and more.

    Thanks,

    Rob

66. Rob, you might want to rethink the connection with Vista. That is not the most reassuring model. ;-). Guy.

67. Rob,

    Why does it seem very important for citizenre to have pre-rental agreements. Could your organization have just kept this silent until you had the technology prototyped and real world data concerning the actual systems that we should be considering. Are the pre-rental agreements just part of marketing research? or an enticement for venture capitalists and MLM pre-disposed individuals. Like many who write, we want a solar future but sometimes it seems it is being sold like religion and not technology. Rob you wrote: “Our philosophy is to under-promise and over-deliver and our track record will continue to reflect that more and more.” This is precisely what is disturbing because so far Citizenre has only been hope and promises and absolutely no tangible technology. You recommended that I contact my HOA. I would love to but what would would I show them, pipe dreams in crayon?. Perhaps engineers lack sufficient imagination because we are accustomed to making things work and let the results do the talking.

    Respectfully,
    Rich

68. Vista did exist in 2004, but it took them until 2007 to make it work as desired. Citizenre may announce something but its reliability, efficiency, installation performance will take years to qualify in real world conditions. Does Citizenre employ any engineers or is this just a business fantasy.

69. Rich:

    I understand your frustration. We will have plenty of support documentation to show your HOA down the road. Right now I would just sit tight until we can provide the documentation that would make you feel comfortable.

    The idea of establishing the residential contracts ahead of time serves several functions. We learn a lot through this process. We have a pipeline of orders ready for when production begins. Our investors are more comfortable knowing that the market will respond to our offer. And our sales force has become much more effective over time.

    Of course, the delay has also caused some challenges and inspired some skeptics, but no great mission was ever started without its doubters.

    I apologize, but I have to bow out of this dialogue. It has begun to take too much time.

    I answer all of the questions in our internal forums. It is free to join and there is no obligation…plus we provide a lot of free training.

    Thanks,

    Rob

70. Last comment…we have several engineers working with us. Our CTO is Dr. Rob Wills who is one of the preeminent designers of renewable power electronics.

    We understand that many people are skeptical because we have yet to release a lot of information or even the majority of our senior staff. Once everyone knows all that is behind this company, the skepticism will decrease dramatically.

    Rob

71. Its a year later. I recall when I placed a call for a Cit-RE sales person to contact me all I got was a letter in the mail and no follow up. I heard that within the following year things would be getting installed.
    I have yet to see any installations now a year later.

    Im going to bite the bullet and install my own Solar system and just be done with it.

72. I dont think the issue has been raised about CitizenRe, that for most areas around the country, it seems there will be no one to install the units, assuming one day there will be units, which I personally am skeptical.

    Does anyone have any information in regard to becoming a franchise to install and maintain the units?

73. Just checking in after a year or so.

    Absolutely hilarious that Rob is still finding dill weeds to feed his ego.

    Ever onward with the Great Mission!

74. Funny,

    I have never seen such an ass backwords business plan in my life, and I have seen plenty. To start recruiting sales people before you even have a factory is almost insane. There are just too many issues with all startups, and I specialize in them, so to think you can start with salespeople without a product, this was doomed from the start with such an ill conceived strategy.

    Now with the economy in near recession, if not deep recession in some areas of the country, this will further delay progress in my opinion. I was interested in start, but forget it, after almost two years since I heard about it, and nothing but empty promises from a master a former Equinox MLMer, so I have my doubts this will ever get off the ground after all this time.

    Too many broken promises of soon, soon, soon for me. I suspect everyone else who has been waiting for more than a year for some progress is feeling the same way just about now. How can they expect marketing people to line up customers and nothing happens, never mind there is no income from efforts. Customers will not wait, so with no production, never mind installers, which there is also a massive shortage of due to solar sales increasing beyond capacity of even silicon supplies, I see nothing but huge issues ahead for any solar company, and especially a start up operation.

    Good luck, WFL
    Free Business Distributorship

75. After listening to the Feb 08 phone conference update and especially hearing about the difficulties citizenre is facing finding capital, this business is definitely DOA. Any new venture is being thoroughly scrutinized now that there is a global liquidity crisis. Also, there are many new technologies being developed in the meantime that will likely make silicon based photovoltaic technology obsolete by the time these panels are ready to be delivered and installed, so the vertical integration and economies of scale citizenre’s profitability is based on will be for naught. I wonder how soon Ed Begley jr. will disavow his relationship with them? Green technology is a must, be hair brained schemes need to be discarded quickly, regardless of their promise.

76. As long as old Ed is getting the $$$$$ he will take them cause he is into the Green not into being green.

77. You can attack me and question Citizenre and act like you have all the answers, but don’t question Ed’s green ethics.

    I understand that we still have to prove ourselves so we are ripe for attacks from critics and skeptics, but Ed has proven himself over the last thirty years…just as we will prove ourselves over the next months.

    Yes, it is has taken us longer than planned, but that will all be forgotten once we succeed. In the meantime, we are doing everything we can to make a difference now.

    All of our customers will be receiving a free video on how to conserve energy now and prepare your home for solar.

    We have an amazing group of people representing us. They have lobbied Congress for change in our renewable energy policies with over 6,000 direct phone calls. They have brought in almost 30,000 contracts for people who have wanted solar but could not afford it before our solution. They have stood strong while critics and skeptics have nipped at their heels.

    One of my favorite sayings is, “Those who say it cannot be done annoy those of us doing it.”

    I always ask myself, “Is what I am doing based contributing to the solution or contributing to the problem.”

    I am proud of what we are doing. I know that most of you have the best of intentions and you just want to see green succeed. I can understand why you might be skeptical at this point. Our job is to produce the results so there can be no doubt. And that is exactly what we will do.

    If you want to attack me, fine…have fun, but don’t question Ed’s green ethics.

    Thanks,

    Rob

78. So Rob,

    Are you saying that Ed has not or will not receive any monetary compensation for his video clip that appears on CitizenRe Websites?

79. You wrote that Ed is “into the green, not being green.” That is an attack on his character that is unfair and founded.

    Ed would never represent something that he felt did not support a greener and more sustainable world, no matter what financial rewards he could receive. He is a man of character and integrity who believes passionately in helping the environment every way he can.

    I need to get back to work.

    Thanks,

    Rob

80. Rob,

    Can you answer the question directly, is Ed receiving monetary compensation from CitizenRe for his video?

81. I like Ed Begley and his commitment to green tech and do not begrudge him any compensation for his association with green tech. I still think though, that he may be hurting his reputation if he associates himself with hare brained business schemes and as a public persona that will poison the green movement in the minds of green tech fence sitters. After all, why is he on the citizenre website if not to attract the general public’s interest? I feel sorry for anyone who has invested time, reputation and money with nothing to show for it to date, even upper management.

82. We have an amazing group of people representing us. They have lobbied Congress for change in our renewable energy policies with over 6,000 direct phone calls. They have brought in almost 30,000 contracts for people who have wanted solar but could not afford it before our solution. They have stood strong while critics and skeptics have nipped at their heels.

    One of my favorite sayings is, “Those who say it cannot be done annoy those of us doing it.”

    I always ask myself, “Is what I am doing based contributing to the solution or contributing to the problem.”
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Doing it?
    What are you doing? What has been done? Signing up people to hurry up and wait?
    I am going to work tomorrow and I am going design a part and finish a few other drawings. The parts will then go out for quote/order and end up in a product. I do this daily and real products get done. Thus I could show you drawings and specs and our factory. Please don’t pretend you are doing something unless something is happening.
    If you want to promote solar energy that is fine but it is not fine to commit people to contracts for technology that does not exist. I have scoured the citizenre site and there does not appear to be any real hardware designed or tested just old promises of a factory “around the corner” . What did you promote before this the Iraq war?

83. Rob is an idiot.

84. I commented in this thread because it began with a logical and balanced approach. Unfortunately, that has changed.

    As I began in this thread, our model cannot be fully understood without being privy to all of the information. Until that day, being skeptical is a natural response for many people.

    What we have done is made many people more aware of how energy is produced, distributed and consumed. We have had almost 30,000 people take a step toward a more renewable future. They have stood up and said, “We want a better solution. We can not afford to invest 10s of thousands of dollars to buy a solar system, but we will make a change if it makes sense economically.”

    We have shared information on how our customers can prepare their home for solar and save energy now. If you are not one of our ECOs or customers, you would not know this. Here is a video we recently finished that gives people simple steps that they can do now to lower their energy costs and lessen their carbon footprint.

    http://www.citizenre.net/extras/videos/chris_prelitz/
    http://www.citizenre.net/extras/videos/chris_prelitz/steps_to_save.html

    The first one is about 13 minutes and gives an introduction to greening your home. The second one is a short summary of the steps you can take.

    Though we have only installed two homes with solar thus far, and our plans have taken longer than projected, we are doing everything that we can right now to make a difference. What if we all did that…

    Instead of criticizing what is “wrong” with something, what if we celebrated what is right and added our energy and insight into making it better? What if we came from contribution rather than criticism?

    I hope you enjoy the videos.

    Thanks,

    Rob

85. Great Rob,

    I am so glad to hear that CitizenRe is now actually about energy efficiency.

    Now if you would please just pack your sh_t and get out of pretending to be in the PV industry.

86. Egads, when this old thread popped up, it has been so long I had forgotten abou it, so how is the manufacturing plant coming, break ground yet, it has only been a couple years since this was first announced?

    Low-Cost-WiFi.com

87. Who knows if anyone will go all the way to the bottom and read THIS comment? I want to say something anyway.

    I believe the model will work, but you may call me biased because I have taken the training and have become an Ecopreneur. I am committed to making the Earth healthier, and helping make solar possible for all of us. You pay nothing to CitizenRE until an engineer comes to analyze your home and approve the design (and that won’t happen until the company is ready to produce panels for you). Yes, it has been a long wait. Do you remember under the Bush administration that solar hardly was mentioned? that renewable energy was not discussed?

    Now that the financial crisis is going on, this is precisely the time that solar/renewable energy will take off. Investors could not take the risk before, but this administration is committed to making things better for Earth and all people, and investing in this technology is not forbidden now. It’s the thing many are doing, and I expect you will hear about an announcement about the company soon. I wish it hadn’t taken so long, but most likely if CitizenRE had gotten funds a year ago, it could have been one of the companies that went bottoms-up (many have failed this year). Technology has only gotten better and better, and I am one who sees no reason not to trust in this company–after all, no money is asked for until the design is approved. What have I got to lose? If I could afford to put solar panels on my house right now, perhaps I would. But I’ll tell you, it is reassuring to me that the company will monitor and manage my panels once installed, and I’ll pay for electricity like I always have done. I love that poorer people can afford to CitizenRe since they are paying for electricity anyway. Perhaps they will pay less per kilowatt than they currently are. Isn’t that a win-win? I hope someone reads this and reads the information at http://www.citizenre.com. I loved the training and believe that Rob Styler and the president of this company have Earth’s best interest at heart. This company cannot hurt solar companies already in business, and they can’t hurt by being optimistic. Watch and wait if you are fearful of being a visionary, but please do not attack people who want to make things better.

88. Thought this thread was dead?

    Did they ever break ground on solar manufacturing after almost three years of BS? There are several technologies which will be more viable than solar about to hit market, so I doubt this deal will ever become viable.

89. No, the plant has not been built yet. Keep in mind that a lot of things have changed, and this company will be able to provide the best equipment and service because of this wait (things keep getting better!). None of what I see is BS, but of course, if you find something solar that you can afford or you feel good about, do go for it! No reason to wait unless you see CitizenRE has something good to offer. My husband and I do, and are happy we will become customers when the product is ready. If the factory is never built, we have not lost anything. We are unwilling to buy components and put a system together that will require us to get another mortgage; with CitizenRE, we will have equipment that the company will install and monitor for us at no cost. If the system goes down, we don’t own it and will pay nothing for the solar electricity that we aren’t producing. We will still have a meter from our utility company and receive what they give us if we aren’t producing solar electricity. But if we have a great sunny day, and the meter runs backward, and we don’t use that much electricity, guess what? We’ll have a credit! We don’t mind waiting, and feel good about this company. I think the plant will be built shortly since as I said, the conditions have changed and now we have a climate that is willing to go with renewables. Do what works for you, Mark! If you can do wind and produce enough, do it, or whatever you choose. I just commented because I am hopeful and enthusiastic about CitizenRE. Perhaps something different will be better for you. I just posted this and was thrilled that you read it right away, Mark! Power to the people!

90. Mark, can you elaborate a bit on the technologies coming up? I don’t know if treehugger is of treehugger.com, but my big beef with citizenre is how they got so many people, including me, to sign up before they had a viable product to sell. 20 years ago, I was one of the original people to introduce Ifo low-flow toilets into the US from Sweden, which resulted in the Uniform Plumbing Code’s 1.6 gallon/flush standard, so I walk the walk. Perhaps everyone associated with citizenre is sincere, but the world is cruel, especially to the naive. I voted for Obama, but google the new movie, “The Obama Deception” and everyone, keep your eyes open from now on. Still hoping for a better world.

91. Greetings Guy,

    You mean I have you to blame for having to double flush now? lol Seriously, as to this deal, it amazes me just how little they had before they started to recruit distributors. To think they didn’t even have property to start manufacturing blows my mind, and as it appears almost three years later they still don’t have anything as far as I have heard. Maybe someone has updates, but come on, three years from when I first heard about plans and nothing.

    As to what is coming, I cannot say much at this point, but rest assure, after being involved in industry for decades, this will change everything. As soon as more details are in place, I will let you know, but it does not involve the expense of solar, in fact, it will be a fraction of solar cost, and when net metering tariff is finalized and put into regulations, this could solve many issues with energy alternatives which are cost effective as well as zero emissions.

92. Awesome news Mark, yes please keep me posted. I remember hearing something about capturing radio wave energy with small antennas, so I am ever hopeful something in the sustainable energy industry will turn our economy around (or be the next bubble). After all, if limb regeneration(!) is a reality now, who knows what’s next?

93. Poly-silicon shortage? Oh do keep it comming,you are helping my profit margin greatly.It need not be known what is sitting at ones disposal but a shortage for CitizenRE does not exist and a supply from a domestic sorce was in place before going public.

94. Which will come to market first?

    Getting closer, so for those who are interested in alternative energy industry, get on our mailing list at no cost or obligation and it will work similar to CitizenRE with no cost to home owner or commercial businesses, so stay tuned, we will be looking for distributors real soon.

    E.C.S., Inc.

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